Comment by Elvis Fontenot on February 21, 2010 at 9:44am

I don't think that blues and jazz are too gritty for ND, or anything of the sort - I think they're just different to what ND has traditionally been centred around. I wouldn't expect a magazine like "Blues and Soul" to feature country music, unless there was some sort of cross-over,because that's not its traditional target audience. The kind of blues that gets featured around here might be something like Rev Peyton's Big Damn Band or the Carolina Chocolate Drops, or someone like Kelly Joe Phelps. The amount of coverage probably depends on their level of activity.

Someone like Eric Bibb is one to look at - Swedish, of African-American heritage, but I'd suggest that he wouldn't get much coverage on ND because he's a bit too coffee-table - a bit too Clapton - in his appeal (apologies to Eric Bibb fans - I like some of his stuff, but it can be a bit too saccharin to these ears at times). If there are grittier, rootsier artists out there, then they're probably being discovered by blues purists - not ND readers, whose interests largely lie rooted elsewhere. I'd like to hear them though! The key again, is audience cross-over, or lack of.

As for jazz - well, the closest that ND might get is some jam band review? I don't think that jazz can be classed as roots music any more - it's too far gone from the days when that might have been the case for it to come back - unless it's reclaimed from the ground up, which I doubt will happen - jazz is either too cerebral or not instant enough, or not catchy enough for widespread appeal - which is why those who love it, probably will defend it to the last - me? I've tried it - haven't got the patience with it. In parts of New Orleans it's still community music, but in few other places; too me it's like opera - a musical form that still lives on, but in its own parallel existence, almost independent of popular appeal.

That's my five penn'orth, as we say in the North of England...

Comment by Will James on February 21, 2010 at 9:47am

Hey, I grew up thinking that black music was invented by young white kids from England. Couple thoughts, in fairness to "Americana" (a term I dislike almost as much as Gram Parsons hated the term "Country Rock"), just how inclusive should it get? The blues is the blues. Jazz is (mostly) jazz. Why should it be labeled Americana (of course I have the same question for a lot of rock etc. that ends up on the Americana radio chart). And PC aside (which it always is for me!), look at what black musicians are producing these days - should most of that be taken any more seriously than the CMA? I don't see much "roots" in that stuff... (BTW, long live the great Buddy Guy!)

Comment by Grant Alden on February 21, 2010 at 10:27am

Two quick things.
First, in its print history ND dodged blues because we/I did not wish to compromise in any way the viability of Living Blues magazine, nor to compete with it. When Living Blues found an academic press for its home, and we felt we could competently do so, we expanded to cover blues. What happens here is a reflection, I presume, of what the community's interested in.
Second, from what I remember the audience for blues is aging white people -- and that comes from a roots music bidness summit I participated in a few years back, maybe more than a few years now. As an art form with impact in its native community, as an art form being pushed and expanded by new and young artists with new ideas...the blues is moribund, best I can tell, and I still listen to what can be found. Most of what I hear is either a Budweiser commercial or the output of a conservatory.
As to jazz...again, as a publishing venture ND steered clear of jazz because it was more than adequately covered by other titles.

Comment by Howard Mandel on February 21, 2010 at 10:42am

As I haven't been reading No Depression right along, I may be dim on the accepted definition here of "roots music" or "Americana," and I'm not attuned yet to the general interests of most ND participants. But to take either "roots music" or "Americana" literally, I can't see how blues OR jazz -- at least historic, traditional jazz, like Count Basie, like Jelly Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, etc -- can be disqualified. The techniques and strategies of the original jazz musicians live today in almost all bands playing vernacular American music, across genre. Ideas of improvisation, of group interactivity, of how to build a solo, rhythmic impetus -- these don't come from the Carter Family, friends, or descend from Scots-Irish balladry.

I admire David Wondrich's book Stomp and Swerve: American Music Gets Hot 1843 - 1924, and teach another course at NYU on "Roots of American Music" starting with Native American music and the impact of the Spanish as early as 1535 . . . to me, this "roots" idea is *very* inclusive. Not that it needs to embrace "what black musicians are producing these days" by which I gather Will means hip-hop/rap/neo-soul rather than the blues renditions of Cassandra Wilson, James Blood Ulmer, Keb Mo', etc.; the Piedmont recreations of the Carolina Chocolate Drops, the ragtime of Reginald Robinson, the jazz of Kermit Ruffins and maybe even Allen Toussaint. Contemporary commerical music is just that, not "roots music." I understand that to many consumers current jazz could seem "like opera . . . independent of popular appeal" but it doesn't intend to be that -- it's not in a foreign language, based on traditions from Europe a century ago. Few jazz musicians intentionally elude popularity, but are rather channeled away from presentation opportunities to the listenership that might find it appealing, except for various (I think, scurrilous) habits of mind, which we can overcome if we want to. Does anybody listen to Steven Bernstein's Millennial Territory Orchestra, sometimes featuring Doug Wamble? When I come to ND and read "the roots music authority" as its self-description, I assume it's inclusive of blues, just as if I went to "Blues and Roots" mag I'd assume it would have *some* reference to country music; how could it not? Country musicians, white ones, have played the blues at least since Jimmie Rodgers, right? There has been considerable crossover/overlap between black and white musicians and audiences for more than 150 years in America. It surprises me if people reading ND aren't at least potential listeners to black American music that's influenced white American music from Thomas Rice, Dan Emmett, Stephen Foster, George Christy to Emmett Miller, Bob Wills, Hank Williams and Elvis to Bob Dylan, Willie Nelson, Ry Cooder, T-Bone Burnett, Lyle Lovett . . .

I write about current jazz, avant-garde, new and unusual music on my blog at ArtsJournal.com/jazzbeyondjazz and in publications including Down Beat, The Wire, Signal To Noise, etc. I wouldn't write about breakthrough "new music" or music made by people far from America's core culture on ND. But I hope I'm right to assume this is an ok place to report on revival/revisits to early American repertoire, like when Wynton Marsalis & Co. essay Count Basie. My question about that to ND's principals is what prompted me to begin posting. Discussion of borderless music from throughout America that shares common roots, values and quality, which reflects the diversity of our nation as it is today and where it came from, that's what I'm hoping ND is about.

Comment by Jerry Withrow on February 21, 2010 at 11:29am

Interesting points, Howard - and they relate to many of the concerns I have with whatever American Roots music is and may become. For some, it's a very narrow category indeed and it seems almost reflexive for some to dismiss jazz and Black Music out of hand. There are certainly writers here (and I've benefited enormously from insights such as those of Douglas Heselgrave) who stretch those boundaries to enrich the niche. Still, even Douglas doesn't usually post his most boundary-pushing reviews here and I'll admit to trimming my ND poll entry of jazz and world music 'cause it seemed a bit pointless.
And that's sad it, seems to me now, So I'd welcome Howard's contributions here on a regular basis. The music warrents a wider perspective. Certainly there's already deserving music - from the aforementioned Carolina Chocolate Drops, B.B. King, Buddy Guy from Ruthie Foster, Mavis Staples, Bill Frisell, Bettye LaVette, Allen Toussaint, Hank Jones,Bela Fleck with Toumani Diabate and Zakir Hussain, Charlie Haden, the Betty Davis reissues, James Blood Ulmer, Corey Harris, Jim Byrnes, Alvin Youngblood Hart, The Roots, Joe Henry's upcoming projects with Mose Allison and Harry Belafonte, Steve Dawson's Mssissippi Sheiks project among others,and any and all of the Jazz Icons DVD series....
Last year, Brian Blade brought a wonderful gathering of talent to Durham to celebrate his father's decades-long mimistry. An honored jazz drummer, Blade was joined by the pastor ,a full gospel choir and Americana luminaries Daniel Lanois, Buddy Miller and Greg Leisz. The results were soul-stirring to say the least. The two-day event was filmed and recorded and perhaps can eventualy serve as another welcome step in bringing us all back home.

Comment by Will James on February 21, 2010 at 11:36am

Yes, Howard, that is what I was referring to (although Keb Mo just doesn't do it for me). I really don't think anyone here at ND is editorially excluding any audience; hell, I'm living proof of that;) If someone (perhaps yourself) wants to start a blues or jazz-based Group, they are welcome to (if it isn't one of the 100+ already). Some Groups here are more popular than others; isn't that just so democratic? I believe all your points are well taken re: roots. My daughter attends Berklee College of Music, partially on my dime, and believe me, while she did hear *blues-based music* growing up (Mike Bloomfield, John Mayall, etc.), she didn't hear too much jazz the other side of Traffic. Now that she's sixth semester Berklee and has learned stuff about music I can't even begin to understand, she's all about jazz (although she insists it has to be listened to live, never recorded). I'm thinking about pulling her and getting her in a proper school (just kidding Meade). Anyway, I do think your observation, for that is mainly what it is, is true about the content here, so let's get going all you blues and jazz lovers out there!

Comment by Elvis Fontenot on February 21, 2010 at 12:19pm

"Ideas of improvisation, of group interactivity, of how to build a solo, rhythmic impetus -- these don't come from the Carter Family, friends, or descend from Scots-Irish balladry."

I beg to differ - instrumental improvisation might have been popularised in the 20th century by many Jazz musicians, but if you trace back further still, then the whole history of folk music is about improvisation and change - if you read Nick Tosches' "Country - the twisted roots of rock'n'roll", he traces the changes in musical forms back through centuries - surely that's down to constant improvisation? Gaelic instrumental music - African chants - Romanian folk - time causes improvisation - Jazz took it to another level and made change a virtue, rather than a necessity born out of a lack of talent or a suspect memory (many players changed tunes because they couldn't play them as they heard them! I'm one of those...) Surely that has happened across all cultures, documented or not.

As for reporting on ND about the kinds of music you mention - I think that's great. Not everyone will pay attention, because it might not interest them - but not everything on here, as much as I love ND's core musical focus - interests me. If it helps to open ears and minds it's all good by me; if you are able to turn me (or anyone else) towards one new type of music that I'd never have discovered, then your time here will have been well-spent!

"Borderless music from throughout America" - from throughout the world, hopefully!

Comment by Howard Mandel on February 21, 2010 at 1:53pm

Great comments, you folks are serious.

Elvis, I go with all music being improvised -- that is, before it becomes fixed in mind and practice. Composers improvise as they compose, how else can they get from one note to the next (ok, they can apply mathematical procedures, but that's recent in Western cultural practice). I haven't read that Tosche but thanks for the recommendation. Sure, change, evolution, development those are big improvisations, and I don't mean to hold to primacy of jazz players on improvisation in performance (as opposed to with form) -- South Asian music has been rich with performance improvisation for eons, more than any other culture I know, to my experience African included. Surely there was fervid, competitive improvisation in early American fiddle competitions (documented from prior to the Revolution). Just as surely the development of instrumental improvisation as a keystone of song-based music in 20th and now 21s Century America is due to practices identified first and foremost with African-American and Euro-American musicians reflecting perhaps the increased rate of social/technological change during this time period, the cultural dislocations/recreations specific to it, too.

Many years ago I went to Bill Monroe's Bean Blossom bluegrass festival, and was impressed with the instrumentalists' high standards of virtuosity, creativity and interplay. I've found little evidence that similarly high-polished, spontaneous and open-ended instrumental presentation was attempted in what we now consider "country" music prior to or otherwise than the emergence of the (blackface) minstrel show circa 1840s. Seems like "improvisation" grew out of that and New Orleans marching band members ragging or "jazzing" popular airs about 70 years later. Tosches is great on Emmett Miller, so I'll gladly read what he says about those roots of rock.

No to Keb Mo'? How 'bout Alvin Youngblood Hart? Corey Harris? Otis Taylor? I concede I'm more interested in the hotter younger electric blues-slingers including Chris Thomas King (who does a great job on the Wim Wenders The Soul of A Man film personifying Blind Willie Johnson and wasn't bad in O Brother, either), Lurrie Bell, Billie Branch, Zora Young, Lil' Ed and the Imperials (no one who knows present-day Chicago believes the blues is moribund, watered down or conservator-ized), Shemekia Copeland, like that. But I've got fine and genuine blues songster Jr. Mack coming to lecture/demonstrate at my blues class March 8. He's under 50, a New Jersey native with childhood gospel roots, introduced to gtr and blues by an uncle, digs jazz gtrists starting with Wes Montgomery/Geo Benson, but loves and is deeply committed to blues repertoire, which he plays and sings movingly (and he's adaptable, playing solo, with a band, as a frontman or sideman, etc.) Just to say, the blues live.

Comment by Jerry Withrow on February 21, 2010 at 2:41pm

..... and so much of blues has always cycled its way back to and out from the church and the gospel heritage - as I'm sure you recognize Grant, from your love for the Como Now project. I'd suggest that impulse is still active and generating vital music in black churches across the land, as I've been blessed to witness firsthand .... and almost always far from the music industry's sheltered ears.

Comment by Grant Alden on February 21, 2010 at 5:56pm

I would add only that ND was an early advocate of the Chocolate Drops, that I wrote about Otis Taylor my own self because he's the only modern bluesman who touches me, and that the magazine put Allen Toussaint on the cover (granted with Elvis Costello, but I thought Costello was the greater reach for us), wrote long pieces about Mavis Staples and Little Miss Cornshucks and some others.
Again, there were what I think still to have been honorable reasons we tailored our coverage the way we did. And when we ran Barry's Cornshucks piece, it was simply because there was nobody else willing to do it. But my theory was always to hit 'em where they ain't...(and if you ever saw me with a bat in my hands, you'd know what a joke THAT was...)

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